Interview with Elon Musk's Father provides a View into South African Racism
How do Elon Musk's racial views compare to his father?
SUMMARY:
Elon’s father, Errol Musk, gives a free-ranging interview to a “colored” South African living in London.
1. Perspectives on Apartheid and Race Relations
The Apartheid Era: Errol Musk expresses a viewpoint that faces strong pushback from the host. While the host highlights the systemic oppression, land restrictions (86% of land reserved for whites), and wage disparities of Apartheid, Musk argues that black people had employment, owned homelands, and that “separate development” applied to white groups (English vs. Afrikaans) as well. He denies having a personal nostalgia for Apartheid, noting he ran for parliament twice with the anti-Apartheid Progressive Party in the 1970s and 1980s.
Views on Black Governance: Musk expresses deep skepticism regarding the capability of a black-led government to run South Africa, citing widespread corruption, theft, and infrastructure deterioration under the ANC. However, he acknowledges that the ANC “hasn’t done such a bad job” in terms of ensuring overall survival and that general racial harmony in daily life is better now than before.
Controversial Comparisons: Musk states that nature and history have endowed different races with different cultural “talents” for managing large populations or specialized skills (such as white farmers being historically better suited for farming in Africa). He also defends controversial figures and drawing a parallel between British far-right activist Tommy Robinson and Nelson Mandela, claiming both were unjustly jailed by the state. When the host challenges his assertion that Mandela killed women and children, Musk backtracks, stating he doesn’t want to get into the court records.
2. Immigration and Xenophobia
Musk claims South Africa is facing a severe crisis due to an estimated 27 million illegal immigrants coming from countries north of South Africa (like Zimbabwe).
He asserts that these immigrants only find employment from the white, Indian, and colored populations because local black populations lack employment-generating capabilities. In his own mid-sized town, he claims every single black worker is from Zimbabwe.
3. Personal Background and Upbringing of His Children
Humble Beginnings to Wealth: Musk describes growing up very poor as a refugee family after World War II, living in a single communal room. However, through his technical aptitude, he became highly successful at a young age, owning a private airplane, a Mercedes, and one of the finest homes in the country by his late 20s.
Raising Elon: Because of his wealth, his children (Elon, Kimbal, and Tosca) grew up in a highly privileged environment and traveled extensively. Musk sent Elon to study in the United States alone at age 17, confident he could handle it due to his worldly upbringing.
Funding Zip2: In 1995, after Elon and Kimbal graduated, they asked him for funds to start a “.com” company. At the time, wealthy South Africans were desperate to liquidate assets to flee the incoming black-led government. Musk sold his large ocean yacht at a steep loss (for $100,000) and used underground third-party channels to transfer the funds to the U.S., resulting in the brothers receiving $75,000 to launch their business.
4. Security and Crime in South Africa
Post-1994 Lawlessness: Musk describes a severe deterioration of safety and a massive spike in violent crime in the northern suburbs of Johannesburg (such as Sandton) following the 1994 transition. He claims that violent gangs targeted homes at random to rob, kill, and assault residents, operating freely due to a total lack of police intervention, which eventually forced communities to establish private security groups.
The Farm Invasion Incident: He recounts a personal event from 1998 where intruders targeted his 12-acre horse farm. Musk states that he was told by others that his 6-year-old daughter “likely” would have been taken and murdered for muti (traditional medicine/witchcraft) purposes had he not intervened.
Host Pushback: The host heavily criticizes this assertion, calling it a dangerous insinuation rooted in internal prejudice and racial bias. When the host questions whether the intruders were simply there to steal, Musk doubles down, suggesting they could have shot her through the head or eyes instead, while reiterating that local people warned him about the muti risk.
5. Closing Reflections on Life and Current Coexistence
Perspectives on Hardship: Towards the end of the conversation, Musk reflects on his own early childhood hardships. He emphasizes that despite his later wealth, he grew up with no toys, barefoot, and without even basic luxuries like milk because it was too expensive. He uses this background to argue that his critiques do not come from a place of unearned privilege, but from someone who understands what it means to have a difficult life.
Modern Day Interaction: Despite his deep political and structural concerns regarding the ANC government, Musk concludes the interview on a surprisingly positive note regarding everyday life in South Africa. He expresses admiration for how kind, decent, and peaceful ordinary South Africans are to one another in their daily interactions across racial lines (whether Black, white, or Colored).
Final Conclusion: He notes that while the general population is deeply worried about the ruling party “pinching” funds and failing to manage the country’s infrastructure, the people themselves remain remarkably happy and harmonious in their day-to-day coexistence. The interview closes with the host thanking Musk for his time and for patiently spending an additional half-hour troubleshooting technical issues before the call could begin.
QUESTIONS:
Why do think the statistics about land ownership seem to trip Elon’s father, Errol, up so much?
Why do you think Errol believes that nature and history have endowed different races with different cultural “talents” for managing large populations or specialized skills (such as white farmers being historically better suited for farming in Africa)?
The Musk family financed Tommy Robinsons’ lawyers. Errol Musk supports Robinson, yet can’t recall what Robinson was charged with. Judging by his answers about the charges of Nelson Mandella, as well as the charges against Tommy Robinson, where do you think Errol Musk gets his information from?
Why do you think Errol Musk is so averse to immigration from Zimbabwe, given that he agrees that they are good workers?
The interviewer pushes back against Errol Musk’s belief that Errol’s 6-year old daughter would be killed for muti, citing statistics. Errol instead believes the word of local people, who warned him about the muti risk. What approach would be most effective in persuading him to rethink this fear?
Would you consider Elon Musk’s father to be a white nationalist? What do you make of Elon’s ?
TRANSCRIPT:
Chapter 1
Tommy Robinson was a political prisoner. I don’t want to go on with it. Do you really believe that if they left these expertise, this land, this machinery, these techniques were left to black people that they would just starve themselves and be incapable of farming themselves? Yes. You believe that? Absolutely no doubt about it. He’s called you quote a terrible human being, someone who plans evil, someone who’s done every crime you can possibly think of. He has also said that he would not introduce you to your to his kids. There seems to be this like sort of even when you’re speaking now there’s this nostalgia for a time where 80% of South Africans were black were were were seriously oppressed and marginalized. So let’s say German shepherds and you decide you’re going to bring in a bunch of terriers or something. They start fighting. They’re not the same. So they start fighting. But did you did you just compare human beings to dogs? When did when did when did Mandela kill women and children? he actually uh was found guilty of placing bombs. You know, I don’t want to get into that. And so, I mean, no, but I think it’s quite it’s quite important to get into it because you say that he was guilty of killing women and children, but he was never charged with that. Do you know why Tommy Robinson was put in jail? It was again, you know, it’s a setup. You know, we we proved that it was a setup. I don’t want to, you know, I mean, you say you don’t want to get into it, but I mean Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay, let’s just stop. I’m going to just look at the camera. I’m going to make a welcome and then we’ll start the interview. 1 2 3 clap.
Chapter 2: Growing up after the war
Hi, good day. Welcome to another episode of Unapologetic. I’m your host Karim. And today I’m speaking to the father of who will most likely be the first trillionaire on Earth. Uh Elon Musk is the is the guy who’s going to be the first trillionaire on Earth. But I’m speaking to Errol Musk, his father. Errol, welcome to the show. Thank you, Errol. Thank you. Thank you for your time. uh just I mean the audience may not know this but you spent at least half an hour working with us to troubleshoot this call so that we can actually have this interview and so we’re really grateful for that because I mean despite you clearly being quite an important person you had you had the time to do that for us so we thank you for that. Um just to sort of start this off with um uh I’ve mentioned that you know your your son may be the first trillion on Earth. is currently worth depending on on the price of stocks and how people are valuing SpaceX at the moment anywhere between 600 and 850 billion US. Um it’s very very it’s possible that you know within a week or less he could be worth a trillion. He may not stay there for a while but eventually he probably would. Did you think I mean I I understand that you came from you yourself came from quite humble beginnings. Did you ever think when you were growing up as a child that one day you’d be the father of who would most like the person who’s going to most likely be the first trillion on earth? No. No. I never we never thought like that when I was uh young. We I grew up after the Second World War. You know, things were were very difficult. You you became accustomed to the way your parents and your parents uh your friends parents had to live. uh people lived very much um on the little bit of money they earned all the time. I as a young boy always imagined one day, you know, it must be nice to to be better off because occasionally you did see people who, you know, when I was a child who seemed to be better off, but generally speaking um you I grew up more um with an academic urge to to uh justify my existence to to to to be um worth something uh uh in terms of in my case very much technical things. I I was very good at technical things and so I I left university at the age of 22. By that time I was 24. I already had a private airplane and I had a brand new Mercedes and and 25 my son was born and I was married to May and uh it just continued like that in my life. Um so that um I uh found a natural aptitude to um to to work with uh development and understand it was like I didn’t know it was built into me was sort of built into me to do this kind of thing. And so by the time I was 30 years of age I had everything that a person could possibly want. By the time I was 30, my home, which I’d lived in already for about 3 years, is today the home of the European Union ambassador to Southern Africa. So, it’s probably one of the five finest homes in the country. And I bought that when I was 27. So, I Elon and Kimble were raised in that type of environment and Tusca. And so, they had seen a great deal of things. And certainly by the age of 18, by the time they finished school, they were very capable individuals because we had traveled so much and it was possible for under those circumstances for me to do what very few people could have done at that time. We’re talking about 45 years ago, 40 years ago, um where I um said to Elon, I want you to go and study in the United States. and he he he completely agreed with me and jumped at the idea. And so at the age of 17, I was able to send him on his own when he wasn’t even eligible for to drive a car because it’s 18 to drive a car in this country and and I sent him off to America to study and I knew he would be all right because he had done so much traveling with me. So that that is the sort of background. I grew up very poor. My parents after the war were refugees. So we had we lived in a a sort of communal house with one room and um we eventually managed to get two rooms and um we were lucky. Most of the people only had one room for the family for the whole family. And so I um but as far as expecting my child to be the the richest person in the world, I was always wondering because as time went by in those days, I was the provider for everybody. So I was the provider for my brother, my wife, my wife’s family, my some of relatives of mine. I was prov I had to provide for everybody because I was doing very well and so I did that and of course providing for everybody meant I was providing for the children. I never really thought in terms of them ever having to work and and do anything for me in return. I never thought of that and I I I was more um a little bit slow on that. I I I imagined they would
Chapter 3: Sending Elon to America
get jobs after they finished studies in America. They all studied in America, all three of them. And I imagined they would get jobs afterwards. And I was hoping it would be a good job when he was a young student that when he took me to the places that he was working at like the Bank of Nova Scotia, the people clearly held him in very high regard. And for the first time I was uh you know sidelined and I I I that was quite interesting to see. Um after they finished studies they asked me if they could start if I had any money to help help them start a this is 1995 um helped them start they they graduated at the same time Elon and Kimble and um the reason was that Elon did a double degree. Anyway, they asked me if I could start them off on a with some funds on a um um what do you call it? Um.com company. Now, of course, in 1995, I had no idea what a.com was. But um I uh said yes, I’ll I will help them. And we had in South Africa at the time gone over to a black government. So South Africa was in a terrible state. something like uh you know some of the places must be today um that are struggling um you know I think of what’s going on in the Middle East and stuff and we we we had a everybody was leaving the country it was very hard and you couldn’t really sell anything people were giving their homes away to get away from being under a black government and um so I was able to sell I at that point I had a very big oceangoing yacht which I paid a lot of money for. I paid about 400,000 for it and I I sold it for a h 100,000 and send that money to to them and um uh I man the only way I could do it was to send it through um third party people who I gave them the money here and then they took a cut on the money and the cut was then incre increased by others and at the end of the day they received um 75,000 75,000 is that is that like rand or dollars or no dollars? Dollars dollars. Okay. Just I mean thanks we’ll come back to the story just you mentioned a few things there. You mentioned about you know South Africa changed uh the the ANC uh the democratic government took to took place people were leaving the country. Um you know I mean some people would would would think that you know most most people look at that and think that was a great thing. South Africa finally got rid of a partate and now it was free. uh you obviously don’t seem to have that view. Um I mean I want to I want to I want to talk about that a bit more and obviously I’m a South African too. You you I think Georgie has told you that our our producer um but before we actually get to to the stuff about apart because I think we will speak about that. I mean there’s many people who also believe Elon himself kind of has some sort of white nationalist views. He’s aligned himself with Toby Robinson. He spoke at Tommy Robinson’s march in 2025. What’s your response to that? No, no. Um I uh never the reason I stayed in South Africa, I never wanted my children to leave, but people were faced with um un difficult situations. We had a country north of us for example, not one but one of them was Zimbabwe which had you know which deteriorated to to an extent that that the they were printing 4 billion Rod um Zimbabwe dollar notes to buy which couldn’t buy a loaf of bread um you know so we we were very unsure about the people in South Africa very unsure about the future I mean it’s it’s not it’s not rocket science. It’s easy to understand and we have in fact managed to carry carry on for the last 30 years in South Africa. But the country is deteriorating at quite a quite a quite a rate. Why? I mean there are no new Yeah. Finish your thought. Finish your thought. Racial affairs are much better now. There’s racially things are quite good here. Don’t see any racial events here anymore at all. and not that I saw much before but um we don’t have any any any in that respect we were at a very good position in South Africa but um but um as far as running the country is concerned you know the ANC put their cronies in you know with you know maybe grade two or grade four and make them the minister of defense and the minister of economics and stuff. Can you can you give me examples of can you give me examples of anyone who’s grade two or grade four and became the minister of defense? Well, I think uh Zuma was great too and he was state president. Yeah. I mean Zuma I mean you know fair enough lot of people can disagree on on on I mean will agree that he was corrupt etc. But but I mean in in his own light Zuma received quite a quite astute education. But I mean the point is it seems like again and I I I mean I’d want to discuss the Tommy Robinson thing with with yourself and Elon um with Elon at least but there seems to be this like sort of even when you’re speaking now there’s this nostalgia for a time where 80% of South Africans were black were were seriously oppressed and marginalized and were not given freedom for for large parts of the aparted era. Black people couldn’t buy land. Um they they were not allowed there to live in in in ghettos. You know, they had to carry and it seems like there’s from your part there’s sort of nostalgia for this for this era. You know, we we hope like you know you was things were better back then and now things aren’t that great. What would your response to that be? No. No, that’s not true. That’s not accurate. No, it it’s more wasn’t nostalgia. It was a worry um that how on earth um are is the country going to get by under the under black government? Um we’ve seen the theft and damage that’s been done to the country since uh 1994. Everybody can see it. Everybody’s aware of it. So we on the other hand, I also say to people, you know, the ANC hasn’t done such a bad job. At least we all sort of around. A lot of us are still around and we we’re okay. We haven’t had to take two boats and stuff. But um but people were very very worried and and you can’t take a situation where like a couple of million people were so worried that they gave up everything just to leave and say that’s nothing. That doesn’t mean anything. Of course, it meant anything. We’re sitting in a country today. No, I mean look, I I I IP disagree that I don’t disagree that South Africa has a lot of problems and that there’s I I I mean I don’t disagree that South Africa has a lot of problems. There’s corruption, there’s been systemic thing. Yeah. But I mean I mean are you grappling with the fact that I mean you also mentioned earlier on that there seems to be racial harmony. 100% when you look at the rugby field and you look at a bunch of things there’s a lot more racial harmony than there is now. that the average black family in South Africa now still only has 6% of what a a white household in South Africa would have that’s 116th right so it’s been and that and this is post a partic after 30 years of of freedom so surely you know and and that’s that that’s an indictment on the government itself right but I mean there seems to be so much racial problem still in South Africa but more specifically I mean I mean let’s that being said what do you what do you make about the fact
Chapter 5: Contesting apartheid’s legacy
that you know in in earlier interviews you’ve mentioned. I saw an interview with you about 18 months ago where you compared Nelson Mandela to Tommy Robinson. You said they’re kind of similar. Do do you do you feel that way? Yes. You know, you have to understand I went to Mandela’s trial when I was in grade 12 when I was in our metriculan class. I I I went to the trial of Mandela myself on my bicycle and not only Mandela but several others. And uh I was very relieved as a boy. I was interested in that kind of thing when the the death sentences were commuted um to life imprisonment at the time. Um people in the street on the other hand were crying. People in the street who’ lost their relatives and had lost their children and so forth were crying and and and being very unhappy about this decision. But um I’m very relieved that that that that the death sentence and such like was commuted. But it’s important to understand that um there were issues that people had problems with. It’s not as though there was nothing at all. And um you know um people wanted to continue as far as oppressing the blacks were concerned. That’s not true. Every black had work. Blacks had owned their homelands and we were not allowed to buy land in their homelands. And white people Yeah, but blacks the homelands was 14% land the homelands the homelands was 14 No, the homeland was a total of 14%. All the homelands was a to Errol that’s just completely incorrect. The homelands were 14% of the total land of South Africa. The vast majority of the land 86% was black people were forbidden from buying land or which was traditionally their land there right the there was some when when they were not in their homelands when they not in their bantistan this is just basic apartate this is just the basic understanding of what apartate was that when when you know for for a vast majority of the period of apartate they couldn’t buy land in those areas they had to carry around passes to they they had employment their their wages were stipulated to be less than white people for the same job. They were given a different type of education. They were not allowed equal access to go to the same universities and study the same things. This was just basic apartate. This is why it was a part. This is why it was aborant. This is why the entire international community, you know, boycotted South Africa and put sanctions on South Africa and were were relieved that that apartate ended. And it seems to me that that there’s just a a lack of facts in what you’re saying. But more specifically, I mean, you have said previously you’ve actually compared you have compared Tommy Robinson to Mandela. What’s your response to that? Do you do you think Tommy Robinson is similar to Mandela? Well, first of all, let me just correct you there. I’m not giving you incorrect facts. Um, you may as well be calling yourself giving me incorrect facts. I lived here, so I know what I’m talking about. I I mean, now as far as I live there, too. you living there doesn’t change the facts but it’s fine we can agree to disagree yes that’s all right I I actually stood stood for uh twice for parliament uh you know for the progressive party what they called um and the object was to do away with a partate this was in the 70s and 80s but um um so we were not people um u wanting a partate in my family at any rate. It’s also important to remember that we had separate development in South Africa for the white people. So the white people were also given separate development. There was separate nursery schools for English 100% schools, separate high schools, separate universities. So for the two white groups Yes. Sure, but they were both given more privileged access to all of these these these these facilities than black and and and and non-white people. Well, yes, you know, it in in in certain instances it could be that and in certain instances maybe not. But what I would say is that uh we were all subject to this kind of separate development. As an English-speaking South African, I had absolutely no say in the government. The government is run by the offconce group. I had nothing. We were but but but you could vote. You could vote for but you could vote. Well, you you could vote but the voting was hopeless. You know, we we had elections which we only lost because the
Chapter 6: Land, homelands and race
numbers were were too small for our side. We could black people were not allowed to vote. They were completely excluded from the election process. Do you not see the difference in that? They were they were they were as the as the officer set it up. I don’t want to get into this. We’ll go too far in one direction, but get back to the point. But the black people were given um their own parliaments in their own Zuluand Trans to rule themselves in their given their own Yeah. They couldn’t make they couldn’t make laws for the vast majority of blacks who were forced to live and rent land from the government in in cities where they were forced to work or had to work, you know, forced to work to sustain themselves, but they had to work for for extra low wages. Yes. No, the blacks could have stayed in the in Zuland and and they could have built up their country and they could have stayed in the trans sky, the coars, and built up the trans sky or they could have stayed Now even now when you say this even now when you say this just a minute please know they could have stayed there but they didn’t want to stay there they wanted to come to the white areas because there was no work for any black in their own areas they did not provide work for each other only the white people provided work and that’s where we sit today when we have 27 million according to business insider or something wrote a thing about this we have 20 about three months ago they said we have 27 million uh illegal uh uh illegal foreigners in South Africa working here right now and um when you take that the total population is about 60 million it’s nearly half the population is from above South Africa coming here to work for who they come here to work for the small white Indian and colored population. Those are the only people that employ them. And so they are down here. But it sounds like it sounds like it sounds like even now even now it sounds like when you’re speaking and I’m I’m not trying to make espersions. I’m just trying to ask for clarity. Even now when you’re speaking there’s this kind of tone of like maybe it would have been better if if these these black people stayed in in what was their banistans which was just 14% of the total country even though they were 80% of the population and built that up and that now there’s some incapability from black people to run to govern to create employment to create business not taking into consideration any structural disadvantage any of the fact that you know they were not allowed to own lands and they were not allowed to operate and own businesses for such a long And obviously a structural dis in the white areas in the white areas they could be employed but as you say they had these rules not to sell or buy land but I I take you up on that I’m not sure about that 14%. But apart from that um the um have you have you looked a map of South Africa have you seen how big Papa and these places were? Yeah, but but instead of talking about that that time, I’m fully sympathetic with you. I I I was opposed to everything you are talking about. I wasn’t happy with it. Um and most of my friends were not happy with it. But we were the English speaking group group. We couldn’t do anything about it. And um okay with but where where we are now in South Africa is that we have nearly half the population has moved down from Africa. And they come here in the vain hope in many cases I think of to to to to get um to get um work and then send the money back to their countries uh north of us and um the only people these illegals get work from are from the white people, the Indian people and the um colored people to a certain extent. And so it’s a really um big problem that we have in South Africa. And um there are riots recently trying to where the local black people are asking telling the government they’ve got to get get all these illegals back out of South Africa because they’re taking the jobs of that of theirs. And in in the town in which I
Chapter 7: Mandela vs Robinson
live, which is a midsize town, there are absolutely no local black people. Every single black person in this town, comes from Zimbabwe. Every single one. And so it’s we employ them because they’re good workers. Because sometimes you need workers. So we employ them. But the this is a bad situation and the government is doing nothing about nothing at all. Okay. I I I I I do understand that South Africa actually has a xenophobic problem when it comes to dealing with immigrants and that there’s a lot of immigrants that move to South Africa. Obviously, there’s a lot of problems in Africa. There’s been wars. There’s economic migrants and and there are a lot of structural problems. The issue I’m taking with is there seems to be this tone that black people are incapable. Black people in South Africa are incapable of being able to self-development. Uh not not not understanding that there’s been a structural disadvantage. And I think this echoes because I want to I want to I want to come back to some of the things that you have said in other other interviews where you’ve compared Tommy Robinson to Mandela specifically. Do you do you agree with that comparison? Do you think that Tommy Robinson is like Mandela? Um what’s your what’s your reflections on that? Well, yes, you know, Mandela, you know, killed many people with the things that him and his group did. You know, women when did when did Mandela kill women and children? Well, before uh 1963, they planted various bombs around the country and they deel Dickley was involved in he was the head of the he actually uh was found guilty of placing bombs. You know, I don’t want to get into that. And so I mean no but no but I think it’s quite it’s quite important to get into it because you say that he was guilty of killing women and children but he was never charged with that. He was he was charged with something else. He was he was charged with with with he was charged with sabotage and conspiracy to to to plan guorilla warfare against military targets. He was never charged with killing women and children. Found guilty of No, there was He wasn’t found guilty. He wasn’t found guilty. He he he he admitted to he he he pleaded guilty to the act of sabotage and to to to organizing guerrilla warfare. And so there wasn’t even I mean he actually pleaded guilty. He didn’t he didn’t take the non-guilty plea. Well I was there you know so um um I mean you may be there but this is what this is what the the court records say. This is what history books say. I understand that you may have been there but and I understand maybe the people outside the courts were saying that he killed women and children but I mean Mandela’s famous words as you know in his that the whole world probably knows when he stood in the dock it ended off by saying I have fought against white domination and I fought against black domination. I have cherished the ideal of a democratic and free society in which all persons will live together in harmony and with equal opportunities. It is an ideal for which I hope to live for and to see realized. But my lord, if it needs be, it is an ideal farm which I’m prepared to die for. Now that’s I mean he that’s clearly someone who was was was striving to have an equal and free society. Do you think I mean first your response to that but secondly do you think that’s what people like Tommy Robinson and other people who your son has aligned with and you have praised are seeking the same thing. Yes. Yes. Tommy Robinson. Um, when I was invi in when they interviewed me about Tommy Robinson, when things were very active with him, I and they were putting him they jailed him without any reason and so forth. I um said he’s it’s it’s a parallel. It’s similar to to Mandela because if if you if somebody had said to someone in 1963 that one day Mandela who was then I don’t know 35 years old... white farming has taken a big grip. They’re quite good at farming. It’s not it’s not about being good or bad. They just happen to have that ability. Yeah. Because there’s a historical there’s a historical advantage. Do do you not see that? Do you not see that historically? 400 years of farming in in Africa, you know, 400 years of farming in a country where you might get rain one year, not the next. Yes. Okay. Errol. Errol, I I I I I don’t I’m not disagreeing with you that that generally white farmers in South Africa are good at farming. I agree with that. I’m saying do you not see that that’s because there’s been a structural advantage? There’s a structural advantage to that because you know they they they’ve they managed to own the the knowledge the techniques they they it’s been handed down that skill set right and and and black people literally you mentioned that you know there are subsistence farmers that is not true there are many countries in Africa where black people run very big and successful farms there’s a big weather problem in Africa on the whole in how do how do you think all the people of Kenya eat do you think there’s no farms that function in big countries like Kenya and Nigeria. Nigeria has a population of 200 million people. Where do you think they they get their food from? Well, it’s a bit far away for me, but I know that um Zimbabwe um imports their food and they get um a lot free a lot of free food has been given to Zimbabwe and Zambia by the people of the United States. You know, I’ve been there when the food has been delivered. You know, I’m not saying people are good or bad. People have different talents. People, some people are are are set up by nature over history to be a to be a group of maybe two or three thousand. Other people develop the ability to be a group of many thousands. other people develops. So, so who are the people who are the who are the people who are who have been developed to be millions and who are the people are developed to be less? You said some people have been developed to be Yeah. Just just this is interesting to me cuz I mean this is just enlightenment. Well, I would say the Indians, the Indians, the Chinese, the Europeans um had developed heavily populated um uh places over the hundreds of years that passed. Um when you went to other places like uh India uh North America you found the Indian people the ready Indians or whatever you call them uh living in small groups you know not because they were not sustained they didn’t have large um um setups to sustain them the the in order to have a community of millions you have to have an incredibly advanced way of managing millions. It’s not the same as as being a small group. I I I I think I think just regarding you know the the the way we think about this I mean I hear what you’re saying but disregard I mean the idea that some people have or based on on their race and their culture innate talents to to become larger and not because they were s because they lived in big cities that were situated in the center of big trading routes uh because they were the center of big civilizations. I just I just think we’re going to disagree on that. Um, but what I do think is interesting is is uh there’s an interesting story I heard you you talk about on a podcast where you where you were almost killed. You and your at the time your daughter was 6 years old was almost killed. Um, and this was in South Africa. Do you want to do you want to tell us the story? Yeah. Well, I uh this was back in 1998. So it was after 1994 and after 1994 circumstances in uh the area where I lived at the time which was um uh Johannesburg uh northern suburbs or Santon um after 1994 circumstances deteriorated d terribly um and people were um being shot and killed at random um every day, every day. And um every night and um uh a lot of the time it was it was not political. It was just gang gangs looking at easy targets knowing that there are no police to do anything about it. At that time we did start building up private police groups but not at first. And so quite a few of my friends were shot dead in their home. Um and then the home was pillaged and the women were raped and stuff. And um this happened uh at at an alarming rate. And I remember one day driving into the area where I had a horse farm. I had 12 acres and a horse farm in Santon. And um to get to my place, there was a shortcut to go through uh what was called Loneill Housing. And and one day I drove in and it was a shortcut up to my place and there was a big white sheet across the end of the at the crossroads and the the white that it looked like a driving cinema screen. It was so big, very big. And painted on this was, “Do you want to die?” in blue in blue letters. And then it... people so most likely my daughter would remain muty out of which I’m sure is a terrifying thing to deal with. No, no, which I’m sure is a terrifying thing to consider, right? But this insinuation that oh she would have ended up as Miy and you said likely. You said likely. And so this is just there seems to be this consistent, you know, uh internal prejudice and bias which you know I I just think maybe needs a bit of addressing. So you think they would have just shot her dead and left her for dead? I’m not sure. Right. And I’m sure it was horrible. Right. But they they seem to have been people who came to you on your farm. So they probably wanted to take something from you, steal something from you. There have been cases of I I I I know I know I know I know people personally who have had who have been subject to horrible crimes in South Africa as a South African people in my neighborhood, distant family, people who are friends of family and I’ve heard horrible stories, right? And and that’s that’s an aborant crime, right? But the idea that most likely I mean I don’t think they came here to make muti because if they came to make muti then they would have I mean who knows, right? But this insinuation they caught my daughter. Yes. But it’s but like I said 0.2% or 1%. What I’m telling you is very simple. It’s not complicated. What’s what’s not complicated? No. No. Like I say, I’m sure this is this was a very tragic thing that occurred to you and and you know and and very difficult. But the insinuation that most likely your daughter would have ended up as muty, I just think carries with it while it’s a you know or these people are here to make muty. It just carries with it a lot of a lot of undertones which people would find problematic. Maybe they have just shot her. Yeah, maybe they have just shot her through the head or something which would have been aborant and horrible which would have which would have been horrible. Which would have been horrible. Yeah, maybe they could have just shot her in each eye or something and and thankfully that but but I was told that the likelihood was that they would have used her for Moody. But you talk like that, you know. it would take to to to plan such a thing. Okay. Well, let me finish also by saying Yes. Let me finish also by saying this. I as a South African, I grew up with bare feet, no toys, no special things, nothing special. I lived in a little room. I had no gifts as a child. I got no milk as a child. It was too expensive. So I know what it is to have a hard time but not so much a hard time. We were happy but in our way it was hard but because of that I could be you making asking...