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We’re at a moment where um I think Americans want something that that speaks to this moment that’s different, which is how the Republican party was born. And so I think mom donni is one version of that. Um that that people want leaders who they feel in one way or another are in the moment or up to the moment. And but you’re right that um for someone to be doing that who is the mayor of a major city, it does suggest interesting things about the government and the government guess what being ours like you would actually call him a public servant.
How how how many other politicians right now would you apply that to? It’s not I mean there are many locally but but people whose name you know we know that’s sort of out there being used all the time. We you know we certainly don’t use it anymore for national politicians.
I mean as as you and I were talking beforehand Congress isn’t even meeting but but but not Yes. And I want to talk about that. But but there are there are national people who are public servants for sure who’ve taken huge hits being you know and I I mean let’s start with Andy Kim for example senator from New Jersey.
So but but I would even I mean you could make an argument about a lot of people and why they are in why they’re doing what they’re doing and um but the I think what jumps out to me there is that it did not it used to not I’m going to put this badly. There has been a period in which being a public servant said you were a sucker and that you know really what politics was about was sort of being savvy and getting stuff for your people. And you know I think of the way that the u people like uh Sarah Palin sort of d tried to drag Barack Obama over the coals for being a community organizer or even the idea that the words social justice warrior was actually a compliment right until very recently.
Well, this is like diversity is bad, equity is bad, justice [laughter] maybe those maybe those people have always been there, but they are um that but you know they tended not to get the limelight because they just seemed like suckers. I guess I don’t know.
That’s interesting. I mean, I what I was thinking of obviously was um certainly Trump um who’s not only [clears throat] not a servant of any kind, but he thinks he’s a king, but um also some of the MAGA people in Congress who you know, if if Congress isn’t meeting, if you’re not willing to have town halls with your constituents, if you appear to have no interest in their interest at all, then yeah, you’re not thinking of yourself as a public servant, never mind calling yourself a public servant. But you’re right. There are many people who are acting that way. Um, and who would probably accept that label. So, um, I agree with with your correction to my big sweeping statement. Um, but you know, I think it’s kind of tied up with accountability where I keep I always say we’re in a crisis of accountability where no one wants to be or often is being held accountable for anything. And public servant goes with that. Public servant, the public is a big part of it, right? us. So public servant means, you know, serving our interests, which means they’re accountable to us for what they do. And that’s not generally speaking how a lot of the government is behaving right now. That mammi is kind of in a different model as I said before, but um I think that’s some of what’s happening right now.
But but isn’t that actually what gave us our great reform periods is finally people standing up and going the government should be working for us?
Well, right. I mean, so that so that’s um related to what you said before about the economic changes and and having these big moments. I always and I think these things probably go together. When I talk about the 1850s, I talk about the 1960s. Um I talk about the 1790s. Um I talk about and now I talk about those as moments when um generally speaking Americans knew there was some big issue on the line that that the United States was in a place where 1850s obviously slavery was that issue. 1960s civil rights is that issue. 1790s actually democracy was the issue in which Americans were learning how loud a voice they could have and the people in power thought the less the better. So I’ve always when I talk about that I say there are moments when people can feel that there’s some major fundamental aspect of Americanness that’s under debate and that that makes people that riles people up. It brings people into the conversation who maybe aren’t there all the time. Obviously that could affect the economy as well.
So maybe maybe my cultural approach and your economic approach do they go together in this way? I I would personally I would say that it’s the economic thing that wakes people up to recognize that the government isn’t working for them. That it’s when you start to feel like you no longer have a shot at the American dream, which I would argue that is fundamentally um for most people the idea that if you worked hard, you would be able to live and support your family and they’d be better off than you were. And when you stop thinking that that you can believe that that’s the case when it isn’t for a long time, but then when you finally realize it, you get really pissed off.
But that maybe we can work backward because like you and I both have been all over the rising authoritarianism now for literally decades, you know, since at least George W. Bush. And nothing seemed to grab people. I mean, I I’m exaggerating, but but things like Abu Grae and, you know, the fact we were we were putting people in in third party torture detention centers and all that stuff, nobody seemed to pay any attention at all. And now they are.
And what do you think our trigger issue is now?
Well, I mean, what is you said there’s slavery, there’s democracy, there’s I would say the concentration of wealth in the 1890s. What do you think our center issue is now that people are waking up?
Well, I know what I would I know what I would say the answer is, but I actually don’t think this is what people are responding to. Although maybe now they are. For a long time, I’ve said, you right now we’re deciding about democracy.
Um and and by democracy in part I’m talking about what you’re talking about which is who’s the government actually working for? Does the government represent us? Um but I I don’t know if I’m satisfied with that answer because I don’t I’m first of all I think a lot of people have tuned out that message because it feels kind of ethereal. So um you know it’s democracy related to that. It’s race related to that. It’s um you know as you put it earlier like you know can people still get the American dream? It’s oligarchy. It’s all of these things are happening right now. So, I don’t know right now if there is one issue or do we sort of bundle it all under democracy. I do think that um Americans feel at this moment that in one way or another [snorts] things are going in a way that they’re not happy with and that that there’s some fundamental aspect of the United States and what it is that is at stake. And whether they want to call it democracy, whether they want to call it um you know out of control racism, whatever people, however they define it, I and and that’s true for the MAGA people too, right? That they’ve decided that you know the crazy crazy Democrats and liberals like what are they doing? It’s not American. That somehow now we all feel that we’re fighting about something that’s fundamentally American. I don’t think that’s necessarily true, but I think a lot of people think that.
Well, one of the things I I would argue that every one of these things we are talking about is ultimately about democracy. What is this country supposed to do? But it takes different shapes. And the reason I asked that is because and the reason that I you know I know you’ve never heard of this word, but there’s this thing called contingency.
Oh my gosh, what a great word that is. I will have to use that word sometimes.
I just put my trademark on it. Joanne, I’m teasing Joanne because like like I use it every called Contingency, but like you can’t get out of a conversation with Joanne without talking about contingency.
My students, you should have you should have t-shirt.
You should have swag made. [laughter] I should have contingency swag.
Think about that a little.
But the the protests against data centers really came kind of out of the blue for me. It was not like if you had said to me a year ago, and mind you, you know, my friend Nancy, your friend too, um went on a trip through Virginia a couple of years ago and she came back and she said, “Oh, Heather, you just don’t have any idea about what’s happening with these giant centers.” And and I was like, “Really?” Because I live in Maine. I don’t see any, you know, I I I heard it and I She’s always great on on everything, but it didn’t process for me as something that could become a big deal.
Right. That’s true. And and I wonder if these protests against data centers are symbolic of people are protesting the data centers because they’re loud and they’re taking all our water and all our energy and all those sorts of things, but because they are the symbols of the billionaire oligarchs who are trying to take over our society right there in our towns. And it’s a place where instead of going, I really don’t like Open AI, you can say, get this piece of crap out of my backyard. And and when I think about this moment and where American political anger is, I don’t think it’s just over the data centers. I think the data centers are the symbol of why are you taking away my neighbors? What you know, right? the same way that the petition campaign was not just about petitions.
I think you’re right. But what I was saying earlier is I don’t know if a lot of Americans are thinking about that as being about democracy. I agree with you in one way or another. It’s about democracy. But when people are saying, “I don’t want those data centers in my backyard. What gives you the right to do it?” And then even to close off public hearings about them, right? That was the last thing that the EPA was trying to do is like, oh, and now you don’t even get to have input about it. People understand that that’s affecting them. They don’t like it. They feel that in that sense government isn’t protecting their interests, that the oligarchs are trampling on them. My point right now is and it’s better than it used to be, but I still somehow think that, you know, democracy is at risk doesn’t ring powerfully enough with people as it should or as I think it should as a political historian. So that’s that’s what I’m hedging on. I agree with you. I think it’s all about democracy. And I think if people thought about the fact that it’s about government’s proper relationship with you and the kind of power you should have over the government and that that’s democracy, then I I think that would be clear. But sometimes I’m not sure that that’s clear. Sometimes I’m afraid that democracy feels like an ism to some people.
But but think about take us back to the revolution. um not the revolutionary war um which the distinction between that and the revolution in people’s minds before the revolutionary war that the framers made founders made um most Americans didn’t care at all right they just wanted things to settle down you know you had the patriots and you had the loyalists but the whole middle of the country were just like would you please all just leave us alone right
well yes and no I mean it depended kind of like the data centers if something near them was being affected by the laws coming down from parliament that were taxing things and doing things that they hadn’t done before that that came down to people in the middle of the country. If for example um they wanted to buy a newspaper and now it was going to be a lot more expensive because it needed to be on stamped paper or um they had a deed to the land that they were on. now like just even the deed was going to be expensive because it had to be on you know the stamp act is is a thing that I talked about for your series that that got people thinking about they didn’t call it rights necessarily always the average person thinking about their rights under the British government and how they suddenly felt that they weren’t they were being violated and they had no way to object act, right? People when people think no taxation without representation, they focus on the taxation part and they don’t focus on the representation part. And that was a big part. Uh so, you know, I wouldn’t say they’re just saying leave us alone. Some were for sure, but I would say there was kind of a brewing sense that, you know, we’re treated lesser then and we have no way to be angry about it. that that wasn’t just in cities and certainly wasn’t just elite people.
So that’s actually really helpful because one of the things that I have seen on social media are complaints that it took the diesel crisis to get people to pay attention to the truly horrible things that are happening in this country and have been happening as as I say for at least two years. Um, and people are like, “Yeah, all this stuff was happening, but it took the diesel for cost of diesel going through the roof for you to care about any of that.” And that’s actually really interesting because what the Stamp Act did, you know, as you just laid out, is it meant that even if you weren’t at a place where you could see um, you know, a patriot being harassed by loyalist soldiers or whatever, um, you couldn’t get away from it. And one of the things about this diesel uh the you know the price of diesel going through the roof and now Trump saying well I’m gonna start the war again after the midterms which is um his reported to be his inclination um by a major newspaper last night. I’m not going to say which one because I’m afraid I’ll get it wrong. But um the idea that he’s basically saying I’m going to keep it quiet till the midterms because you all hate it. But then as soon as midterms are over I’m going to do more. that idea that you can’t get none of us in this country can get away from the results of the rising cost of diesel for home heating of oil but also everything we buy
I was going to say anything that’s being moved shipped yes so it’s sort of like our own stamp act well right and and that’s you know what the stamp act did and it was the first sort of thing in the what becomes the leadup to the revolution although they don’t know that at the time is it brought what was a brewing controversy about colonial rights down to everyday citizens and it did it in a way that spread widely. So it it woke people up to the idea that something was happening and it wasn’t just where you were and that’s the you’re right the diesel thing is doing the same thing that suddenly it’s not just like it’s some government thing it’s about politics it’s about parties it’s about no it’s actually come all the way down. It’s pretty much about all of us in one way or another. It’s going to shape or affect us in one way or another. And yeah, that becomes an equalizing experience. That becomes a moment that doesn’t feel as though it’s about politics. It feels as though it’s about, you know, everyday things in a way that really matters. It’s something that brings people together, which is one of the reasons why the Stamp Act really mattered in the leadup to the revolution. Yeah. So, I actually really like and certainly would not have made the connection between how people feel about diesel uh and the price of diesel and how they feel about suddenly every piece of paper needing a stamp on it, which is a way of taxing it. I haven’t made that connection, but you’re right. It makes it every day. It it makes it part of your life. You can’t get away from it. Um and you don’t feel that you have any power to affect change.
Well, especially considering that we had neither us nor our representatives had any say about this Warren run and we appear not to to continue not to have any say in it and that I mean but the next piece of that as you’re saying that which I think is right I am looking like yesterday I think I’ve totally lost track of time um you know there the news broke that Russell vote who’s the head of the office of management and budget is planning and the Trump administration planning not to distribute another billion dollars of um appropriations that Congress agreed to. Congress in Congress the only group that can decide how to spend our money. And of course, Johnson has thrown the House out of session. So there’s nothing people can do to complain. And then after the midterms, we’ve got the pieces of that budget reconciliation bill that the Republicans passed back in July of last year that’s going to dramatically affect Medicaid, which is going to turn around and, you know, all those cuts. We’re going to lose even more of our care. And our we’ve already lost our birthing center uh in in in my whole area, the the closest hospital where you can have give birth is an hour away. and that um I I wonder as we watch these pieces come closer and closer to people’s lives, what comes next if you think about the revolution and the revolutionary war and then you look at the fact that Trump is it’s almost like he’s congealing that as he loses power in some areas he lashes out in others and he’s using the places where he still has running room to do stuff like threatening Cuba again and I just h how do we how do we regain power as of the people without a cataclysm right um I don’t well before I even think about that I do want to make clear the implication of everything that we’re talking about and that you were just saying so folks Congress is us as far as branches of government go they’re all us particularly we vote for presidents and we vote for our representatives. But, and it’s obvious, but I feel the need to say it anyway, when the executive branch or the president or whoever else is floating around in that sphere ignores what Congress has the right to do and Congress MAGA congressmen also appear to have no interest in doing what they supposed what they are supposed to do. What they are literally saying is that we don’t matter. That is what it means. we the people don’t matter. They’re just dismissing us. Now, back to your other question. What do we do to address that? How do we address that? I mean, you know, in the long sweep of American history, often, this is not going to be um it’s not going to seem like a solution because we’ve been saying this for a long time. often there’s some kind of huge mass protest because there there’s always and this was true before we were a country because colonies colonists have a very strong sense or certainly British colonists have a very strong sense of what they would do because colonies have charters and so they understood their rights they understood what their colony was they probably knew in one way or another the people who were governing them and thus when they felt that they suddenly had no voice that was real. That wasn’t like, you know, that darn Congress. It was like, hey, as a colonist, I’m do this or that or the other thing. And now I can’t protest. So, there were all of these protests and sometimes rebellions, you know, Bacon’s rebellion when these uh gentrified young men thought they were due land, they should get land, and the government wasn’t serving them in the way that they wanted it to. So, they rose up. Um, generally speaking, again and again and again, there’s one in New York in the 18th century. Um, you can sort of march through time, you know, the whiskey rebellion, the there are a whole series of these and rebellion sort of sweeps a lot of what it is under the rug. But these are moments when people said, “Wait a minute, we’re we have not only are things not fair, but we can’t do anything about it.” And that’s where generally, who knows about now, but generally speaking, Americans have a strong sense that it’s their right to be able to speak up and affect things. Now, right now, not operating really well. So, your question is what happens next? And I don’t know the answer to that. But but I think if you look at the whole sweep of American history, no matter how people are what words people are using for it, they have a sense that they have certain rights. And when the government is violating those rights, if they don’t feel that there’s a way that they can protest, they get angry. Maybe and maybe they have a mass protest, maybe, you know, whatever or a mass boycott or whatever. But that’s a that’s a and gripe is too trivializing. That’s a an outrage that that Americans and even British colonists who were in North America have always felt. They’ve been very tied to their understanding of a system that in one way or another should represent them in some way. even even parliament although that becomes a big issue over time. So I’m trying to think here how you avoid a conflration and the there we of course we have you’ve just outlined the answers to that. We’ve got the 1890s, the 1930s and the 1960s when especially rising politicians recognized the divorce between the ideals of the country and the way they were being executed and recognized the extraordinary power of the people that that is growing. They’re starting to complain in a really big way in each one of those three periods. [snorts] And they they adjust the government to the desires of the people. And we get the progressive era, we get the New Deal government, we get the civil rights movement. And I mean, this is your field. Doesn’t it doesn’t it seem like the answer to that is making it freaking clear that we’re really pissed off?
Yeah. and and and then you look right now and one of the things that um that I mean you’re seeing all through the news all sorts of Republicans jumping ship from Trump right now, which I don’t believe. I mean, I think they say anything they can at this point to get elected, but the fact that they feel obliged to do that. Um that’s that to me is a significant marker. Not that they’re going to do it, but the fact that, you know, Susan Collins after this thing about the billion dollars last night came out and called it illegal. Well, she’s under huge pressure, not only because she’s unpopular and Trump is unpopular in Maine, but also because she’s implicated in this pretty major scandal, uh, pay-to-play scandal. So, the fact that she’s like, uhoh, I got to do something to make the people happy. I will call this illegal when she, you know, she’s just been concerned now for a very long time. Yes. Um I I thought that again I don’t think for a second her voting will change or anything, but the fact that they’re starting to hear it, rising politicians hear it, too.
Well, right. And obviously it’s tied to an election, right? You know, I mean, that’s why they’re hearing it. And it is true. It’s noteworthy that regardless of whether people actually are backing away from Trump or not, they’re acting that out because they suddenly have to think about the public because there’s going to be Exactly. So suddenly we matter and our opinion matters. So they will perform what they feel they need to perform to get our votes and then they will go back to doing whatever the hell they want to do. So on the one hand, you know, it shows you why our votes are so important. It’s obvious. It should be obvious to us, but you know, they are bowing down to the importance of our votes. It’s also why they’re trying so hard to repress them and negate them and everything else that they’re doing. But what we’re watching is people saying again and again and again that we actually have the power and thus they have to please us for a little window of time. [snorts] Well, so but but I’m making the case um yeah, I’m on the road now. I’m making the case that this is about the midterms for sure, but the midterms are not going to be the magic shift. You know, Trump or JD Vance will still be in power and this is going to be momentum that is building. And I I always go back to the election of of uh 1930, you know, after Herbert Hoover gets elected in a landslide in 28. Then then he takes office in 29. There’s the crash in October of 29. And in the midterms of 30, uh, the Democrats make huge gains, but they don’t win control. It’s actually they get control because I think 14 Congress people die, man, at that point die between um the election and when Congress goes into session, which is almost a year later. It’s the elections in November, they go into session in December the next year. And um um and so at that point, the Democrats get more power. But um but it’s not really till 32 when you see the the landslide for FDR that things really turn around. So that momentum has to keep building. Well, right. And that’s I want to reiterate that because you’re totally right. A and it and it many of us will not be feeling that, right? because we’re so angry and what’s happening feels so wrong that it feels as though there should be a big shift now. We’re too outraged and it’s too corrupt. How can there not be a big shift? And what’s important about what you just said is if there isn’t, and there very well may not be, it’s momentum. What we’re looking at is is moving ahead, pushing things ahead. So, you know, I I would urge people if it isn’t a massive blue wave in the way that they want it to be, not to think, “Oh, well, we lost. It’s over.” What we’re watching now, and what you and I were just talking about, was evidence of it. What we’re watching now is the the power of people who object to what’s happening making itself felt in one way or another. And that’s it’s going to take some time for that to build up and and have a big impact, but it matters that it’s happening. It it matters big time that it’s happen
QUESTIONS:
What image or person do you envision when you think of a public servant?
Who do you think of as the “public servants” of today?
Do you agree that the “public servant” has been seen as a “sucker” previously?
What hope do you have for a rivival of public servanthood?